Opposition

I mentioned yesterday that once I began to study under the Colonel’s ministry, opposition came in. When I shared my excitement with my old church friends of what I was learning, how real it had become, how it was all making so much sense I was told to stay away from Thieme. He splits churches, I was told. I said, “He just teaches truth. If people leave a church to follow that, he’s not doing it, the people are.”

I was also told that Thieme would steal my soul. But when I asked how that might be accomplished, the person couldn’t tell me.

Col. Thieme taught that the “blood of Christ” did not refer to the literal blood of Christ (He didn’t bleed to death after all, since He said himself that His work was “finished” before He died physically) but to the expiatory work of Christ’s spiritual death on the cross, during which he was separated from God the Father for the first time ever as all the sins of the world were poured out on Him and judged. This was major anathema to my critics.

To me it was the first time the whole blood thing ever made sense.  I’d always wondered why would God be interested in some plasma with red corpuscles, platelets and white blood cells. How could that do anything about sin? It made no sense. The moment I heard this teaching I knew it was truth. So many things fell into place. But when I tried to share it people got very upset, so I soon learned not to.

Other friends wrote a lengthy letter detailing a metaphor for Christian living that involved a wheel with spokes — there’s Bible study, witnessing, prayer, giving, singing, fellowshipping, etc. Get too much of any one category, that spoke grows and the wheel won’t work. Clever metaphor, but it didn’t sway me. The word of God is not a spoke equal with those other things my friends listed, it’s the axle around which they all turn! The word of God is the mind of Christ and when it becomes our mind, it informs all those other things, so that we do them in accordance with His standards and in the power of His Spirit.

My mother, an unbeliever, thought I was in some kind of cult like that of Jim Jones, whose Guyana fiasco happened around the time I was just gaining momentum.

The weirdest thing though was the strange assault to get me to buy into tongues. Orville had told me right off that they weren’t for this age, but as soon as we got into the small churches in northern Arizona, we were bombarded with people telling us this was the right way to go. Col Thieme agreed with Orville, and backed it up with extensive scriptural evidence. 

Still, the people kept coming. Our landlady was into tongues and tried to convince me it was good. Then when we moved to an apple orchard, a woman showed up at the door to buy apples, and as we got into conversation, she told me that I needed to have the baptism of the Spirit so I could speak in tongues. A teacher friend invited for dinner, one of the few non-Mormons, confessed that she spoke in tongues whenver she didn’t know what to pray and began doing so right there in my kitchen.

We went to a Bible study where a woman sat looking spacier and spacier as the study concluded and when the pastor started to say the closing prayer she raised her hand and said she had a message from the Holy Spirit. He waved her on and she began to speak in tongues, looking as if she were in a trance. I was absolutely creeped out. All I could think was that it sounded like something from the devil.

When she was done, she offered to give the interpretation (in violation of protocol set up in the NT — it was supposed to be someone else who did that; in fact, mostly tongues was a sign for the Jews to witness to those who had gathered from afar and spoke other languages) wqhich was that God wants us to worship Him “in this way.” I stared at the floor praying God would get us out of there right away.

Thankfully, she finished, the Pastor said his prayer and to my horror, my husband was suddenly in conversation with the person beside him. A pair of shoes appeared on the floor before mine and I looked up into the eyes of the woman who had spoken (there were about 30 people present — and she was some distance away, separated from me by several people when she spoke). She invited me to come to her Bible class. I thanked her, and refrained from telling her I wouldn’t attend if it were the last bible study on earth.

My husband finally stopped talking and we left. Outside I told him of my intense negative reaction and he told me that as soon as she’d begun speaking he’d prayed that if that was really something from God He would make it clear, and if it wasn’t, that He would make it stop. And immediately it had stopped.

We never went to that bible study again, nor the church that sponsored it.

And then, in the most bizarre event of all, our Landcruiser broke down in the middle of nowhere between Globe and Winkleman one very hot summer dayas we were on our way down to Tucson. Stu got up on the Toyota’s roof and spied a trailer hidden behind some trees not far off, so we took our dog out of the car and walked down to see if we could use the phone. I don’t know what was done about the Landcruiser, too excited to discover that the woman of the house was a Christian. We talked and talked and I told her how I’d gotten saved and she took me down to Winkleman for some reason where I told some other people how I’d gotten saved… and then she started in on the second blessing and tongues and how she’d awakened one night to find Satan standing at the foot of her bed. She prayed him away to a radius of one mile from her home.

I probably listened like a deer caught in headlights and was quite relieved when we left. But somehow she had gotten my address and sent me several letters urging me in this direction.  I know I asked her several questions regarding what speaking in tongues did for her but the only one I recall is her saying that it made her certain she was saved. I was already certain of that, so didn’t tongues to do it.

Anyway, this all went on over a period or a year or so, and only when I was  solid in my understanding of the relevant scriptures  and absolutely convinced that tongues are not for today, did all that stop. Since that period of time I have never had another person show up out of nowhere telling me about tongues.

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20 Responses to “Opposition”


  1. 1 KC August 25, 2009 at 8:01 am

    While I agree with you for the most part about tongues (I don’t practice them and have never heard them spoken when I thought they were valid), I still think there are places in the world where they can be beneficial and I wouldn’t want to limit God by saying they could absolutely never be used. I think God can and will use all kinds of things to bring people to him.

    • 2 karenhancock August 25, 2009 at 8:51 am

      Sorry, KC, but in my understanding, tongues are never legitimate today. Paul said in Corinthians that tongues will pass away along with the other temporary gifts that got the church age started. More than that, tongues were primarily a sign to the Jews that their time as a client nation to God was being put on hold for the insertion of the church age, and, as I mentioned in the post, were used to evangelize the Jews that were part of the diaspora. That said, I would add that the wrath and stubbornness of man is never legitimate either, but God can and does use it for His glory (eg, the Pharoah of the Exodus). I’m sure He can do that with tongues as well. Thanks for the comment!

      • 3 Les August 25, 2009 at 12:00 pm

        Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on your beliefs. I had some doubts when I first started reading your comments, but this particular one cemented it for me.
        I am in a Bible based church, Assembly of God. I do know that speaking in tongues is relevant to the church, not only in the past but also in the present. I, too, have scripture to back what I believe. However, we all interpret the Bible differently, that’s why there are so many denominations. As Paul said, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” I’m not saying that all “tongues” are from God. What God institutes, Satan mimics to try and bring disruption and to prevent God’s people from receiving His blessings.
        I have never “forced” my beliefs on anyone. If I go to different churches and they are not enlightened as to the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit,” I respect their beliefs and do nothing to disrupt their services. The Holy Spirit was, is and always will be a “gentleman” and will never force anyone. He is like God’s voice, “a gentle whisper.”
        For this reason, I have requested to be taken off your mailing list. I respectfully disagree with you but felt I wanted to explain my beliefs also.
        God Bless and have a great day.

        • 4 karenhancock August 25, 2009 at 12:56 pm

          Thanks for the comment, Les! And sorry you felt the need to be taken off my mailing list. One thing God has been showing me very clearly of late, though, (and which He emphasized even this morning, in fact) is that He has granted each of us freedom of thought and of choice with regard to our lives, both spiritual and temporal. He also holds each of us responsible for what we think and choose. What a wonderful freedom to know that I am only responsible for what I choose to believe and think, and not what anyone else chooses.

  2. 5 mylittlebub August 25, 2009 at 9:49 pm

    You are bound to get some very emotional responses from this stand. I’m so glad you made it. This is exactly what the current Christian climate denounces. Makeing no compromise about the doctrine you know and believe. They want everyone to make room for everyone else’s beliefs just as long as we are all “Christians”. God is not wishy washy and there is only one truth. Not different interpretations for different people. One truth, and each of us has the privacy and responsibility to make sure that is what we are trying to know and walk in. You can’t know, understand, or learn God through tongues, only through His word. Tongues is an experience of feeling God, that people either have or claim to have and experiences are fickle and only the word is solid, never changeing. Only the word of God grows the believer to maturity not the emotional or miraculous experience. People are very attached to their emotional and ecstatic experiences and get very offended when you tell them that their emotions mean nothing as far as actually understanding God’s word. When you give up feeling God for knowing Him through His word, that is when true spirituality begins. When you know what the filling of the Holy Spirit really is, that is when God’s power goes from an experience you may or may not have to a power that you live in continually and don’t always feel but always bears fruit.

    I don’t have any experience with tongues and there is no calling or hunger in my soul for it nor has there ever been even as a sweet little child loving the Lord with all my heart. I think it is simply a distraction to the simplicity of devotion to Christ(Simplicity, no extra experiences necessary) Christ was more filled with the Spirit than any of us and He was not lacking anything in His relationship with His Father and I can’t think of any time He spoke in tongues to further that relationship. And it would be crazy to say that we have something that even Christ Himself does not have since we have all that He has. If we have more than He does that would make us higher than Him. Maybe the tongues worshippers have a verse that they use to explain that, I don’t know. This is just my opinion since I have no real experience with those caught up in tongues worship.

    Mary

    • 6 karenhancock August 25, 2009 at 10:19 pm

      You know, more and more, Mary, God is showing me that it’s His word we have to go on and NOTHING else. We walk by faith and not by sight, and feeling is a form of sight. So is having vindication from events, or having a lot of people agree with you. It has to be what the word says and not how we feel, and God puts us into situations where we have to decide if that’s how we’re going to live or not.

  3. 7 mylittlebub August 25, 2009 at 10:04 pm

    If the purpose of tongues was always evangelism which I am convinced from scripture that it was. It was indeed something to desire for the early church believers and a wonderful thing for people without a written scripture to be able to hear the gospel in their own language. Now,we are the first humans in history to have the completed word of God. And to be able to make it available to every people and language. The word of God is alive and powerful. How cool.

  4. 8 Melody August 28, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    Karen – I love reading your blog. I think you are so insightful, and I love your apparent love for God’s Word. I do disagree with your viewpoint on tongues, and I responded to it with a blog of my own: http://refractionsandreflections.blogspot.com/2009/08/on-speaking-in-tongues-response.html. I would love to know your thoughts in response to my response. 🙂

    Blessings.

    • 9 karenhancock August 29, 2009 at 10:22 pm

      Thanks for the comment, Melody. I’m glad to know you enjoy reading the blog. And while I read your linked post on tongues with interest, I stand by my conclusions with regard to that gift not being legitimate for today. Of course, since my original post was not really about my conclusions regarding tongues, I’d have to do a post or two elaborating on that to lay out the reasoning for those conclusions. So far I haven’t felt the leading. I will note that when I said “extensive scriptural evidence,” I really did mean extensive not just a single verse. (Though I Co 13:8 does say that tongues will cease, along with knowledge and prophecy, two other temporary gifts provided to reveal mystery doctrine to Church age believers during the pre-canon period of the age. Once the canon of scripture was completed those two gifts were also phased out. Tongues were discontinued by 70 AD when the Jewish nation was destroyed along with Jerusalem.)

      If you are truly interested in some of my scriptural reasons I invite you to visit http://www.gbible.org/index.php?proc=d4d&sf=rea&did=46 where you can read or download a summation of the doctrine of Tongues by my pastor, Robert McLaughlin. Colonel Thieme also did a very thorough study on Tongues, where he went into the original languages in great detail as well as the historical setting at the time of writing to the Corinthians, which is fascinating. That booklet is available free of charge at http://rbthieme.org/publicat.htm

      • 10 Melody August 30, 2009 at 8:05 am

        Thank you for your response, and I will definitely check those works out. I always like to understand others’ perspectives on theological issues, as long as they are based on Scripture, as yours are. Thanks for taking the time to read my post.

  5. 11 John & Tam Kramer November 5, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    Hi Karen it’s John & Tam from TBC & Tucson Bible Tape Supply (Hubbards outlet for Bob’s Material). I had no Idea u had this Site. I guess it’s like our Site , not many of our members visit except to post Prayer Requests which is just fine for us. I found U while doing a “Review” of Bob’s Life as posted on the Web. Ft. Wayne is my birthplace & that of many wonderful Innovations, but Hands Down, the Colonel is it’s Proudest Contribution to the entire World. I’ll remember every minute I have ever spent with him & Betty here in Tucson. I only regret is to have not lived in Houston to be closer. I met him in 1970 through the Hubbards while they were in the little trailer & the barn next to Rincon Baptist Church which we were a founding member of back in 1966. It too was on Golf Links road just west of Tape Supply. I Personally rate Bob second only to Paul in Doctrine & Equal in Devotion & Drive for the Word. If U ever would like a complete copy of All of Bob’s Doctrines, I have the Originals from Bob complied on C.D., just ask. These are straight from Amy Puryear’s puter as she sent them back to Bob for proof. These are not for “Distribution” & were passed out to Pastors, Missionaries & “Special Cases” (that’s me ok) but I do make these available to Believers who Loved Bob. Being disabled, I use them to help people with Questions here on the Web as a Ministry. I don’t think John has these as there is a slight “Rub” there. I have missed the Colonel for many years now & U never knew when U called if he was having a “Good Day” or not, so I stopped calling except the people at church for updates. I can see him now however leading a “Strike Force” at Megiddo/ Armageddon! Need to go for now CUL John & Tam

  6. 12 Mary Beth May 22, 2012 at 9:58 pm

    I was under Col. Theime’s Ministry for several years, starting as a teenager in 1966 to Adult life 1970’s. It was a life saver for me, I was raised in a very strict legalistic home. I agree with how the teaching helped me understand the Bible Better and how to live the Christian life. In fellowship 1st John 1:9 or out of Fellowship. The Faith Rest Life, learning to rest and trust God !
    I could go on and on, I loved what I learned and I pass it forward and teach others what I learned. Also the Angelic Conflict and understanding we are in a Spiritual war. The Blood of Jesus – THEIR IS MUCH CONTROVERSY OVER ! Ponder on the verses where Jesus told his Disciples to eat his flesh and drink his blood! Do you think Jesus meant His literal blood of course not !!! Did He shed His literal blood on the cross of course He did ! But it was the literal and what it represented ! It was about his Covenent with us ! A binding blood covenant ! Read about peoples and what blood covent means to other races and tribes. It was His Sacrifice of course, But is it signicicant that He gave up His own Spirit, because by doing so He proved that He was God and no man could kill Him ! He allow men to crucify Him, but He was in control of His own Life and Death ! That is important because it proves He is God !

    However, I left Berachah after Col. Thieme started teaching for weeks about war and I decided that I had heard enough. He helped soldiers not live in guilt for serving in wartime and I am grateful for that. however, sadly he harmed some, like my friend who came back from Viet Nam with Silver Star, Gold Star and 3 purple hearts who had long hair and was asked to leave. Very sad !!! He could have helped him, Put the beggar on the front row, it is Biblical, and Col. Thieme always said you could wear a barrel and come into the sanctuary, but long hair.

    He was cultish in that he said you had one right pastor and one right woman and no other. I agree we are to seek God’s will as to Pastor and Spouse, I am sure God has a perfect plan, but even when we mess up He can provide another.

    About tongues for today: God is the same yesterday and forever and I read the long book and could not find proof.

    In my own personal life, my husband was an angry raging man who got set free by Jesus !!!!! During this time of desperatly seeking answers I was Baptised in the Holy Spirit, after that demons manifested in my husband and he tried to attack me. When he attacked me tongues started coming from my mouth and he threatened me, that if I did not saying the Name of Jesus He would harm me………… I argued back that I had not said the Name of Jesus and He argued back that I had. That is when I realized they were real and that God had given them to me to empower me and help me in a desperate situation. So I know they are real and I was taught they were of the devil. They helped me overcome the attacks of the devil. My husband got his Bible out and told me he would prove that tongues had ceased and were not for today, and after two weeks he came to me and said I can’t prove it, so he said, “I want mine”.

    Let me put a warning here, in Revelationl it says, anyone who changes the words of this book will be removed from the Lambs book of life, also we were told that it was better for Him to go, because He left us His Holy Spirit. I guess if I had not been in a desperate situation I might not have ever had any of this happen. But now I am grateful that I went through it all.

    And now I teach Confession of Sin, Rebound and Repentance and how to walk in the Spirit not in flesh etc. to Charismatics. Interesting Life !

    I love Jesus……. Blessings M. B.

    • 13 karenhancock May 23, 2012 at 9:47 am

      Thanks for you lengthy comment, Mary Beth. I appreciate your taking the time to read my blog entry and offer your perspective. As I said in answer to another one of the commenters, we are all free to embrace whatever opinion we choose.

      I stand by my conclusions that the Bible clearly states that Tongues shall pass away, and that they were primarily a sign for the Jews that they were going into discipline. I also believe that it’s surpremely important to go with what the Bible says over any experience we might have. We are fallen, imperfect creatures, easily deceived, with a strong tendency to become subjective. Even under normal situations we mis-hear, mis-see, misunderstand, misspeak, mis-assume and mis-remember. When under highly charged situations, our capacity for all of this is intensified. Thus the importance of having a solid, unchangeable reference in times of storm.

      • 14 Maryb May 23, 2012 at 1:49 pm

        Even though it was an experience, it did indeed happen and that cannot be changed. God used it and my husband is totally different today, only God could remove rage from him. The sad thing today with the Church is the denial of anything that suggests the supernatural. Our God is Supernatural and our Salvation is Supernatural. Supernatural is the walk with the Spirit.
        People had dreams visions etc. In Jude building yourself up by praying in the Holy Ghost. I agree with you that I do not want to be deceived, I want the truth. Please don’t think I am rude. I read the book on tongues and it was a very lengthy explaination that after reading I am asking myself, what were the scriptures saying it ended. What about the great commission did that end as well ?

      • 15 Mary Beth May 24, 2012 at 8:01 pm

        I totally agree with Bible over experience. Give me the scriptures saying that it has ended.

        • 16 karenhancock May 25, 2012 at 10:46 am

          There are many. The most succinct is I Co 13:8 – 10 “Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away, if there are tongues, THEY SHALL CEASE, or the gift of knowledge it will be done away. For we know in part and prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes (completed canon of scripture, which occurred in 96 AD when John finished Revelation) the partial shall be done away.

          1 Co 14:1 – 19 about how the temporary gift of prophecy was more to be desired than the temporary gift of tongues. And about how praying in a tongue and not understanding what you’re saying is “unfruitful.” Also vs 20-22 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be babes, but in your thinking be mature. In the Law it is written, “BY MEN OF STRANGE (GENTILE) TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF GENTILES I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME,” says the Lord. So then tongues are for a sign, NOT to those who believe, but to unbelievers…”

          If you are interested in understanding my scriptural reasons more fully I invite you to visit http://www.gbible.org/index.php?proc=d4d&sf=rea&did=46 where you can read or download a summation of the doctrine of Tongues by Pastor Robert McLaughlin. You might also look into the doctrine of dispensations, which also has bearing on this matter.

  7. 17 Mary Beth May 24, 2012 at 8:27 pm

    About tongues: I am usually unemotional while praying in the Spirit. I was not looking for tongues when I stumbled into the Spiritual warfare of my life time. I also believed they were not relevent for today. But in seeking God in a desperate need. I called a friend who I trusted and knew she was the real deal, as in strong Christian I went to her house for prayer as had been abused by my husband. She sat next to me on the sofa and started praying for me. I heard her praying in tongues ( she tells me to this day that she was not) but that is what I heard. Upon hearing this, I asked God to protect me and cover me, and that if tongues were from Him I was open. This is what happened next: She said “you are in fear” I said “yes I am”, then she said, “fear go! In Jesus Name” And the fear left just like that !
    In an instant I was lifted out of fear, my whole countanence changed.

    This changed my whole life. I went to Barachah Church which was a Blessing and gave me a foundation. Tongues I do not use as an emotional tool. There is a diversity of tongues the Bible says. One is praying in the Spirit. When I do this on a daily basis, He gives me an understand of His will for me. Also, I have a boldness and confidence that the Holy Spirit brings. I study the word, get Bible Doctrine in me, pray in the natural and pray in the Spirit. There is an equiping and empowerment it brings to pray for others and confidence in the Angelic warfare.

    By the way I totally agree on the understanding of the Blood of Jesus, it helped me understand better what, Jesus did on the crosss. And you know it wasn’t literal when He asked them to eat His Flesh drink His Blood. I believe some of the Disciples left Him on that note. I think He wanted them to identify with Him in His sufferings. Another talk on another day about that.

    When, are the sons and daughters supposed to Prophesy and He will pour out His Spirit on all flesh. Maybe we are coming into that time. I believe we are in the last days.

    Blessings, Mary B.

  8. 18 John Kramer May 28, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    Hi All! Mary B. I’m sure that the 3 of us (Karen,U & I) can agree that Bob’s teaching is probably second only to Paul’s even though he has a strong military background (that often shows), many are grateful for that training & diligence that has driven him on increasing their knowledge & closeness to God. This will serve us well during these “End Times”.I thank God for Bob & now Bobby who is continuing in his footsteps.Stick with it his teachings are True & Correct. John K.

    • 19 Mary Beth May 28, 2012 at 8:09 pm

      Yes, John that is true ! I find myself being the one that understand how to walk in the spirit not in the flesh for example and teaching others. Bob, called it in the top circle or in the bottom circle I believe. I even had a croched diagram of this my Mom made. Sounds silly but, this is how my Mom taught my husband, about being in fellowship with God, vs. being out of fellowship. I was a teenager hungry for the Word and we drove from Red Bluff Rd and Spencer Hiway in Pasadena,Tx. to get to Berachah Church 40 yrs ago.

      Blessings, Mary Beth Novelli

  9. 20 Mary Beth May 28, 2012 at 8:29 pm

    I read teaching on tongues. I understand the old testiment reference to tongues. However their is a diversity of tongues and one of them is praying in the Spirit which he did not comment on. Paul said he did more than all and to forbid not to speak in tongues. Paul also said to desire the best gifts.

    Praying in the Spirit edifies the believer, as we do not know what to pray. And what happened to the Apostles, & Prophets. Looks like we through out everything but Teacher and Evangelist. What gifts do you feel are legit? This is the Last Days. If we ever needed spiritual gifts it is now! Like, now or never ! Christ will be here any moment !
    I’m using mine, “Praise God”, and Thank God! Then, When is Jesus going to “pour out His Spirit on all flesh and your Sons and Daughters will Prophecy and Old men will dream dreams”. Hope I quoted that Scripture correctly, it’s late as in evening.

    Blessings and love in Christ,
    Mary B.


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